How do I update the new Phoenix class b airspace to See You. See
You's files do nort have the changes. How often does See You update
thier charts?
Thanks
Mike Martin

Hi Mike,

We had a similar issue here in Minnesota when the MSP Class B airspace
changed. I asked Andrej at SeeYou to post an updated airspace file and he
did. I recommend that you send him details on the dimensions of the new
airspace.

I recommend that you also send the details to StrePla and WinPilot and
SoarPilot.

I believe that the airport data the John Leibacher has access to also
includes current airspace data, but I'm not certain.

I would be glad to help you get this resolved.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> How do I update the new Phoenix class b airspace to See You. See
> You's files do nort have the changes. How often does See You update
> thier charts?
> Thanks
> Mike Martin
>

On Nov 10, 9:10 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> We had a similar issue here in Minnesota when the MSP Class B airspace
> changed. I asked Andrej at SeeYou to post an updated airspace file and he
> did. I recommend that you send him details on the dimensions of the new
> airspace.
>
> I recommend that you also send the details to StrePla and WinPilot and
> SoarPilot.
>
> I believe that the airport data the John Leibacher has access to also
> includes current airspace data, but I'm not certain.
>
> I would be glad to help you get this resolved.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the commens. I have sent a message to the See You forum.
Mike Martin

Anyone thinking of soaring in the Phoenix area should be aware that
gliders without operating transponders are not allowed to fly between
9,0000 ft and 10,000ft within the 30 nm mode C veil. This is direct
consequence of the lowering of the class B ceiling from 10,000ft to
9,000ft.

Andy

doesn't the transponder exception for aircraft manufactured without an
electrical system apply (or are you saying that they can't fly inside
the Class B airspace)?

Scott


Andy wrote:

> Anyone thinking of soaring in the Phoenix area should be aware that
> gliders without operating transponders are not allowed to fly between
> 9,0000 ft and 10,000ft within the 30 nm mode C veil. This is direct
> consequence of the lowering of the class B ceiling from 10,000ft to
> 9,000ft.
>
> Andy
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

On Nov 11, 8:20 am, Scott > wrote:
> doesn't the transponder exception for aircraft manufactured without an
> electrical system apply (or are you saying that they can't fly inside
> the Class B airspace)?
>
> Scott

In general, gliders have exemption to fly without a transponder under
a mode C veil up to 10,000 feet, but the lowered class B around
Phoenix overrides that.

There is a letter of agreement available between local FBOs and the
Arizona Soaring Association that would permit gliders to again operate
in this 1000 feet of airspace, but to my knowledge, no one has signed
it.

Personally, I think you are nuts to want to fly anywhere near this
airspace without a transponder. legal or not.

There is also the more important question of whether or not we'll even
have anywhere to launch in the foreseeable future. The newly re-
opened Turf Soaring and Estrella Sailport are under pressure from
development and I'm not hopeful that they will have a long future.

Mike



> Andy wrote:
> > Anyone thinking of soaring in the Phoenix area should be aware that
> > gliders without operating transponders are not allowed to fly between
> > 9,0000 ft and 10,000ft within the 30 nm mode C veil. This is direct
> > consequence of the lowering of the class B ceiling from 10,000ft to
> > 9,000ft.
>
> > Andy
>
> --
> Scotthttp://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
> Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
> Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Yes, I'm not saying it would be wise to fly at 9000 close to PHX, just
that it is allowed (the mode C veil, that is)...

Sorry to hear about Estrella :( I took my first two lessons there back
in December of 2003. I REALLY enjoyed it out there!! Hope they can
hold out!!

Scott


Mike the Strike wrote:

> On Nov 11, 8:20 am, Scott > wrote:
>
>>doesn't the transponder exception for aircraft manufactured without an
>>electrical system apply (or are you saying that they can't fly inside
>>the Class B airspace)?
>>
>>Scott
>
>
> In general, gliders have exemption to fly without a transponder under
> a mode C veil up to 10,000 feet, but the lowered class B around
> Phoenix overrides that.
>
> There is a letter of agreement available between local FBOs and the
> Arizona Soaring Association that would permit gliders to again operate
> in this 1000 feet of airspace, but to my knowledge, no one has signed
> it.
>
> Personally, I think you are nuts to want to fly anywhere near this
> airspace without a transponder. legal or not.
>
> There is also the more important question of whether or not we'll even
> have anywhere to launch in the foreseeable future. The newly re-
> opened Turf Soaring and Estrella Sailport are under pressure from
> development and I'm not hopeful that they will have a long future.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>>Andy wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone thinking of soaring in the Phoenix area should be aware that
>>>gliders without operating transponders are not allowed to fly between
>>>9,0000 ft and 10,000ft within the 30 nm mode C veil. This is direct
>>>consequence of the lowering of the class B ceiling from 10,000ft to
>>>9,000ft.
>>
>>>Andy
>>
>>--
>>Scotthttp://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
>>Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
>>Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
>
>
>

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Nov 11, 8:20 am, Scott > wrote:
>> doesn't the transponder exception for aircraft manufactured without an
>> electrical system apply (or are you saying that they can't fly inside
>> the Class B airspace)?
>>
>> Scott
>
> In general, gliders have exemption to fly without a transponder under
> a mode C veil up to 10,000 feet, but the lowered class B around
> Phoenix overrides that.
>
> There is a letter of agreement available between local FBOs and the
> Arizona Soaring Association that would permit gliders to again operate
> in this 1000 feet of airspace, but to my knowledge, no one has signed
> it.
>
Mike..
Do you mean FSDO, not FBO..
Unless the FBOs have signed the LOA with the local FSDO and ATC facilities
and they are the responsible party in the LOA.

Everyone should really read FAR91.215 in regards to transponder requirements
and exemptions within the 30nm Mode C veil around Class B airports. It
applies to everyone, the non- transponder exemptions are for those without
engine driven electric generating capability.

91.215 holds everyone without a transponder capability (J-3 Cubs, gliders,
balloons or other antique no electrical system aircraft to remain below
10,000ftMSL OR the Ceiling of the Associated CLASS B airspace.. WHICH EVER
IS LOWER.

We have the same situation in the Las Vegas Area, the Class B only goes to
9,000MSL. Our soaring club holds the letter of agreement with local ATC,
FSDO and the Western FAA District office in SFO. The LOA allows
non-transponder gliders to climb between 9-10K MSL in certain designated
climb windows. The window in use is dependent on the landing runway at
McCarran (Class B airport).

Install a transponder, and use it, and the 91.215 9K MSL altitude
restriction goes away.
But now the shoe is on the other foot, and hotly debated in the past. If you
have a transponder it must be powered on, draining batteries, whether or not
you plan to go above 9K MSL. (91.215(c))

BT

Sorry I wasn't clear about the letter of agreement. Yes, it is
between the FAA and three local soaring organizations - two FBOs and
the ASA.

Estrella is apparently going very well with a very solid training
schedule, but it is starting to look like it will be encroached upon
within the next few years. Furious development there has ended with
the recent housing problems, but there will be pressure as land sales
to developers are continuing. What makes me more pessimistic is that
until the recent changes the FAA had been receptive to protecting
Estrella's airspace. Now they don't seem to care.

Mike

Thank Mike.. I just read the "DRAFT 2" doc version posted to the ASA
Discussions area
Is it signed and now in effect? That is a pretty wide open waiver.

An easy way to "track" and absolve some of the ASA concerns would be to add
an "endorsement" area below the LOA, signed by the pilot wanting to use the
LOA that he wants to be able to use the 91.215 waiver and keep a copy in you
club records.

We have one paragraph in our member and visitor application that covers our
waiver.

BT

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sorry I wasn't clear about the letter of agreement. Yes, it is
> between the FAA and three local soaring organizations - two FBOs and
> the ASA.
>
> Estrella is apparently going very well with a very solid training
> schedule, but it is starting to look like it will be encroached upon
> within the next few years. Furious development there has ended with
> the recent housing problems, but there will be pressure as land sales
> to developers are continuing. What makes me more pessimistic is that
> until the recent changes the FAA had been receptive to protecting
> Estrella's airspace. Now they don't seem to care.
>
> Mike
>
>

I can see why Turf would be under pressure from escalating land prices
but Estrella is bracketed east and west by a pair of large, active and
likely toxic dump sites which, hopefully, will protect them (at least
from the developers).

Ray Warshaw
1LK

> There is also the more important question of whether or not we'll even
> have anywhere to launch in the foreseeable future. The newly re-
> opened Turf Soaring and Estrella Sailport are under pressure from
> development and I'm not hopeful that they will have a long future.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

On Nov 12, 1:28 pm, 1LK > wrote:
> I can see why Turf would be under pressure from escalating land prices
> but Estrella is bracketed east and west by a pair of large, active and
> likely toxic dump sites which, hopefully, will protect them (at least
> from the developers).

Ray: They'll have to move a bunch of wrecked cars, trucks and buses,
that's for sure. But take a look at Estrella on Google Earth and
you'll see that there is a lot of empty land around.

While you're on Google, see if you can spot the various types of
glider at Estrella that day. The photo was taken late on a Saturday
morning early last year and there were a bunch of ASA pilots rigging
for a contest, including me with my Discus 2.

Mike